Stopped by TJ police car, this time I fight

[Lane]

Congrats Mike....

 

[sajeesh E.R.]

Fireballs and Burt, you guys are writing so much, I feel like I am reading a thesis Thanks. My personal take has always be to be firm but polite, listen and comply. Many a times I have taken the Mexican cops lightly just because they are from Mexico and once it created a problem for me, it was a clear violation on my part. Other than that I think I had good run with the TJ cops, mostly they treat you with respects which cannot be said of the most young kid cops in the U.S. About fighting for rights, one disadvaneforum.xxxe most mongers have is to "keep it under the wraps" so we dont want to get stuck in Mexico fighting in court even though we may be in the right. It would be a diffierent story if I were to live in TJ, but then also one wouldnt be brash and uncooperative

 

[NoPro]

Burt wrote:

What I have found and long suspected is a lot of guys make up tuff guy stories about standing up to the TJ police, as I use to say, I wondered why the TJ cops would even try to shake somebody down, when so many guys from other sites make the cops back down. I'm not talking about you Burt, as I believe your crazy enough to ask for a search warrant if they try to search you or your car. My only worry is if some newbie follows your advice and ends up getting their ass kicked by the TJ police.

In my opinion I believe somebody told you or you tried to figure it out for yourself, that TJ police can't search you or your car without a search warrant, based on something like the Article 16 of the Mexican Constitution. I think that's wrong, but I can't find anything in the Mexican criminal codes or state laws that address the issue. To me it's like a Mexican unfamiliar with the US Constitution and laws reads about the US 4th amendment and then is under the impression that US cops can't stop and search your car at any time. A guy like that wouldn't know about recent supreme court rulings, or the rule that allows US cops to do a weapons search anytime they feel like the guy they stop could be a danger to them.

I'll link this article that says that Mexican President Felipe Calderon is instituting crackdowns that make George Bush look like a member of the ACLU. ,it goes on how changes are being done to the criminal codes. I was reading somewhere else how everyone believes in Mexico criminal suspects in Mexico is presumed guilty until proven innocent. They say that is no longer true, that Mexico amended the Mexican Constitution with a few lines to change that? ( I should try to double check that?) I just don't think we American can possibly begin to understand the complex Mexican law system and the everyday practice of the law, or the new changes.

I believe the TJ police are within their rights to search you or your car in Tijuana, until I received proof otherwise I for one will follow their request and allow them to search me, besides I have nothing to hide. Now your welcome to hold up the Mexican constitution and tell the TJ cop he needs a search warrant, but don't be surprised when he laughs at you, and searches you anyway, and tells you to use the Mexican Constitution to clean your ass after you take a shit, because this is Tijuana, and you follow my law!

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/john_ackerman/2007/06/civil_liberties_and_war_in_mex.html

 

[googley]

Thanks for sharring your experience. It's similar to mine and is what I think those who "politely but firmly" stand up the the cops in TJ can expect.

 

[gramof6]

DariusX wrote:

What were the vague and illogical threats? They must have said you did something wrong? Even if it's made up, they have to come up with something?

I would think most of the TJ cops would search somebody first before they give them that famous tour of the city of Tijuana, it's a waste of time all around if your taken for a ride and don't have any money to pay the bribe?

That's the decision everybody has to make: Are you willing to take that tour of the city, as I understand it could go on as long as 45 minutes till they wear you down and finally let you go, or in DariusX case he got lucky and they let him go right away; or do you just take out your wallet and hand the TJ cops one or two twenty dollars bills to get them off your back so you can go back to the zona and do what you wanted to do in the first place. Personally, I'd probably pay the bribe, maybe put up a little fight, so they wouldn't expect too much money, but really I have no interest riding hand-cuffed in the back on a TJ police car on a tour of the city.

 

[Cornflakes]

Really?....I thought this country was founded on the idea of gold, fortune, buried treasures, money, greed.............sounds like those TJ cops.

 

[zeureeka]

Back to the original post, I was stopped in about the same area leaving the Leyva, and with very similar results. I hadn't done anything wrong and had no contraband. After vague and illogical threats they said I would have to go to the jail and pay a fine there, or pay them directly on the spot. I told them I didn't have any money and they would have to write me a ticket. I had already decided if they were going to give me a ride around I was going to go along with it and not give them a cent. They handed me my license and took off, no ticket, no bribe.

 

[Trudy J]

Yes, LE in the US relies on intimidation. Yes, they turn into assholes when you say no. But you won’t “end up sitting on the curb, searched,… [while they]… take your car apart…[or]…damage …your car.” Been there done that.

(Frankly, it would be nice if they did. After I got through with them in court I’d never have to work again. They know that, which is why they won’t do what Fireballs fears they’ll do.)

 

[ChivaChiva]

This proves my point, which is that Mexico isn’t a police state where the cops can do whatever they want. People have civil rights in Mexico, just like they do in the U.S.

In shakedowns the TJ cops rely on intimidation. Sadly, it works because people like Fireballs get scared and immediately pay the cops to go away. The more often it works the more often tourists will get fleeced.

Do I advice forcible resistance? Of course not. Do I advise being rude, insulting, etc. Of course not.

What I advise is politely but firmly standing up for yourself. What they are doing is illegal and you have rights. So ask why you are being stopped. Ask if they have a search warrant. Tell them to give you a ticket instead of just handing them money. Etc. Etc.

I’ve been very sucessful in making the cops “go away” by “politely but firmly” standing up for myself. This thread was started by somebody else who also got the cops to “go away” by standing up for himself. A lot of other guys have also found the cops “move on” in search of easier prey once they realize you won’t cave into their exhortation tricks and pay them to move on.

 

[DueNov17th2009]

The fact is the cops in the US can search the cars almost arbitrarily, it's not hard to think up a few reasons. The cops aren't ACLU card carrying liberals, the way they justify making up white lies about stopping you, because they believe they are doing the greater good by protecting society For the US cops, BP agents and even the TJ cops. It's all about intimidation, respect, and cooperation.

They almost always ask can I search your car, and as soon as you give them permission 4th amendment rights are no longer a concern. 99% of the people comply with cops requests. If you tell them no you are being seeing as uncooperative and some of them will start acting like real assholes, and treat you and your car real bad! I recommend before pissing off the cops have a good reason for your refusal other then you value your freedoms, because your gong to end up sitting on the curb, searched, and they are going to take your car apart possibly damage some parts of your car.

I sure as hell wouldn't have wanted to be in Vietnam during the fall l of Saigon.

Again Burt if you value freedoms as much as you say you can't just vote to the best candidate that you feel. Politicians toe the party line, it must be close to 90% of the Republicans support Bush's NSA Electronic Intercept Program. The only people who stand in the way of Bush's intercept programs are the Democrats, and even they don't put up much of a fight, as the constitution gives the President much power. Personally, I have no problem with saying on suspected terrorist overseas, sure the power could be abused, but I doubt very much it's going to be used against me.

 

[Law Man]

Burt wrote:

Lets look at this statement as I have some real concerns about Burt recommending to others to tell the TJ cop when he stops you that you request a search warrant. I'm not sure what the exact law is, although the Mexican constitution has some protections built into it, as the Mexican constitution copied many of the US laws when they wrote it. However, what's the state law,and what's the everyday practice of the TJ police?

Just on the face of it....it's seems funny to believe the TJ cops don't have the authority to search your car when they stop you. What happens if they suspect you'll a cartel member with an automatic rifle. You really believe the cartel member can simply tell the TJ cop you can't search my car, because I tell you that you can't till you get a search warrrant? I think the TJ cops would just drag the son-of-a-bitch out of the car hand-cuff him, kick him a few times and then search his car. Now of course if he has a few $100 bills then he could be free to go.

Maybe Burt believes the TJ cops need probable cause like in the US? Which if so, shouldn't be hard to get? I don't have the answers on this one, but I believe if you follow Burt's advice you could end up in more trouble then if you simply allowed the cops to search your car? Hopefully, will find out more about the exact law in Tijuana in the months to come?

I believe Burt is wrongly interpreting the Mexican Constitution article 16 when he says he will demand a search warrent. I believe the TJ police are within their rights to search your car in TJ:

 

[cheyenne]

Once again:

I am strongly opposed to turning this nation into a police state where LE can randomly (and arbitrarily) question and serach its citizens. I value my right to privacy. I strongly value my right to peacefully go about my business unmolested.

 

[Creek]

Yes, I do have strong feelings on this issue. It's probably the strongest language I ever used on the boards.

This isn't the first time in my life the gov't has argued it needed citizens to surrender their civil rights to protect us from a foreign threat. Sadly, the "boogy man" agruemnt often works.

This is the same sort of thing that happened during the Viet Nam era. Then after the Church Committee hearings the CIA and FBI got their wings clipped. Viet Nam fell. But the communists didn’t take over the country—in spite of the fears back then of those like Fireballs who believed the only way to protect the nation from the godless communists was to give up some of our civil rights.

I totally reject the argument that LE can’t protect the nation without violating our civil rights (and yes that includes the NSA “listening to our conversations with sex hookers.”) If that argument were true then the blind sheik would have blown up the world trade center in the 1990s. The fact of the matter is that LE has demonstrated it is able to protect the nation without violating civil rights.


Wrong again. I’m a registered Independent; I cast my vote based on things like issues and the competency of the candidate. I don’t vote based on party labels.


More false assumption. He was a moron if he thought I was returning from Mexico; I was headed towards Mexico when he stopped me.



What you are describing—a nation where the police can randomly and arbitrarily question and search its citizens—is a police state. I am strongly opposed to turning this nation into a police state. I value my right to privacy. I value my right to peacefully go about my business unmolested.

 

[Dirtbag Poser Bot]

Bohemian, yes sites can be addicting too, but are you able to resist temptation away from the chicas? In this thread I was looking for others opinions as it does no good to just argue with Burt, as I'm sure we both have our minds made up?

You know Chargers brings up a point that I been seeing more and more, and hear and read about it. And that's to treat the TJ cops or all cops in Mexico with little to no respect. Didn't Sampson also say somewhere he yells at the TJ cops if they start fucking with them?

In the Mexican pamphlet it warns undocmented Mexican Aliens,' do not resist arrest, Do not assault or insult the official.' I understand they wrote that because they know how some Mexicans treat their own Mexican police?

Perhaps, the US government should write it's own pamphlet how to conduct yourself in Mexico, maybe put something in there saying don't insult, or spit in the face of a TJ cop, as that could be hazardous to your health? Now my inlaws aunts who lived in Mexico could get away with insulting a TJ cop if he tries to get them to pay a bribe or fucks with them for no reason, but a monger who doesn't understand the culture, and only goes to Tijuana to fuck sex workers once a month or so, might not be able to get away with insulting the TJ cop and telling him they don't have to listen to them?


From the Mexican pamphlet about how to conduct yourselves with the US police or BP agents:

 

[Absent]

My experience with Mexico is as an American driving a car in Mexico, you are a Magent for the police. It does not matter if you have done something wrong or not to be stopped by the police. If you get in an accident in mexico you are always in the wrong whether you caused the accident or not. I live in Tj and I rearly drive in TJ for this reason.

THis guy handled himself well. I treat the TJPD just like you would treat a Private Security guard in the UNited States. Remember they have no formal education, there is no plice academy, most of them have either known someone who was a cop or they bought their position. If you act sure of yourself and you act like you know what you are doing the cops in Tj can be push overs.

 

[LenaLumpLump]

Wow, we have another classic Fireballs Vs Burt debate in the making ! I had stayed away from the TJ forum trying to "de addict" myself from the Zona, but here I am back ! Seeing a lot of good posts from so many different and new folks. Thanks.
Let me start with the easy one first. I would request Amigomio our "Mexican cultural/legal" counsel to advise on the following. Thanks !

 

[:pms:]

Burt wrote:

Wow, what strong words feelings! But yes you are entitled to your opinion, but I can't help but think how wrong that type of behavior is. In Maddog's case the BP agent simple asked him what's in the box. In your case Burt the BP agent simply asked you if he may search your car. The BP agent was simply doing his job, and trying to protect America from all kinds of threats, not just illegal aliens or terrorists.

I'm am probably more liberal than you Burt, but asking questions, or searching cars really isn't that invasive and has been up held by our appellant courts. Now I could see giving the BP agent a hard time if he starts acting like a jerk, or if your Mexican and you been stopped ten times in a roll for the simple fact your skin color is dark brown. But lets look at the situation from the BP agents point of view, he sees this gringo traveling the back roads by himself, coming back it looks like from Mexico. If the agent can't figure our your a depraved monger of escorts, he is going to be suspicious as they are trained to look for things that look out of place. I say just let him do the search, you'll be on your way faster then waiting around for a supervisor. The agent doesn't make policy he is only doing his job.

We need balance in the US where you weight privacy issues, against real life threats of terrorists who want to do the US harm. What the founding fathers wrote in the 1700's is great, but they had no way of envisioning a 'dirty bomb' blowing up a good chuck of New York and killing millions in the process.

Is that phone sex call that important that you want to stop the NSA computers from picking out key words from your conversations oversees with a phone sex hooker.( not talking to anybody specifically)

I'm interested in anybody else's opinion on Burt and Maddog, did they step over the line in their concerns for privacy and instead of being a champion for privacy rights, instead just became jerks, trying to stop the BP agent from simply doing his job?

PS if Burt and others are so concerned about privacy right, why do some of you still vote Republican? If you vote Republican, that means you'll usually get a conservative on bench that tries to roll back privacy rights, and all personal rights?

Next I'll look at search and seizure laws in Mexico, info is hard to come by.

 

[WilliamGreenn]

I THINK THE ATTORNEY IS FULL OF SHIT.

This country was founded to escape tyranny and establish liberty. I’d rather see 3000 citizens lose their lives every year than 200+ million citizens lose their liberty. To voluntary surrender our civil liberties makes a mockery of the thousands and thousands of lives lost to establish and preserve this country as the “land of the free.”

Furthermore, what came out of Congressional hearings is that had the gov't enforced existing visa laws the 9/11 terrorists wouldn’t have been allowed to enter the U.S. or would have been deported. If the FBI had followed up on existing tips and leads there wouldn’t have been a 9/11. The argument that the only way to secure the borders and protect our citizens is for them to voluntarily surrender their civil liberties is not supported by the facts.


I agree with Maddog. I have no respect—nor do I think I should respect—those members of LE who have taken an oath to support/defend the constitution then violate the civil rights it provides. I have nothing but contempt for a cop who lies to get somebody to voluntarily surrender his civil rights.

 

[TWIGGY2]

I'm related to a retired judge. It was pretty clear to him the BP didn't have probable cause. It's harder than you apparently think to find probable cause to stop a car at random and search it.

 

[Kracker]

I know for sure the BP is allowed to search your car at the border with no questions asked. They can also search your car at fix BP checkpoints such as Temecula. They can also search your car without a warrant or probable cause at moving check points, for example they set up a road block at a side street to catch the guys trying to go around the fixed checkpoints.

Then you have FUNCTIONAL equivalent: airports, ships, or established stations near the borders.

EXTENDED BORDER- Non routine border searches that occur near the border, which I believe is up to 100 miles, some say 25 miles. Here you need probable cause, looking like a Mexican is probable cause, you don't need much. You also have to be fairly certain a border cross has occurred, and a few other things.

ROVING PATROLS- The BP has the power to seach any vehicle located wthin a reasonable distance from the border without a warrant, again reasonable distance is within 100 miles from any border. This is a debated issue, as it goes against the US Constitution, but Congress gave the BP the power to do the searches, I do believe?( will do more research some other time)

It's pretty clear to me the BP was within it's rights to search Burt's car as he wasn't to far away from the border. The agent looks like he needed probable cause to search the car, but the threshold isn't that great. He should have been able to come up with something, as just about all Cops do, he must have been a new guy who didn't know what he was doing?