Lavender Spa Thread Gone?

[Hornet]

To those arguing about their contributions to our economy and not paying taxes etc., keep in mind most spa girls are not good at saving money so most of what they make are definitely going back into the economy...either luxury clothes, purses, cars, casinos, eating out and of course necessities as well.

Yes, years ago I heard stories about girls in there 20s in the bodyrubs that were blowing everything they made on shoes, dresses, bar & partying, restaurants, cars and condos. Had nothing to show for it at the end of the day. The smarter ones put money away, bought property, etc. but they were in the minority.

 

[AverageJoe2022]

But how is this really that different than waiters, waitresses and bartenders and their tips?

Dude, that’s exactly where your argument is flawed. The amount that an MPA is making in tips is astronomical compared to tips in other industries. It doesn’t even compare. The tips are not bonuses for these attendants - it is their main source of income and yet it is not being reported as taxable (unlike the rest of the population). So, the authorities are finding other ways to put a leash.

 

[OG_funguy]

I’m sorry, fellas… but this is just not convincing anyone that we should feel sorry for the hotshots in the erotic spa industry. All you have to do is compare this with how legit RMT professionals, kinesiologists and/or chiropractors are making a living (without offering any sexual services) - and all of your arguments above will fall apart.

We should feel sorry for these girls because they don’t have money to buy a house?! And we’re making excuses for them because they spend it on expensive items? Then why not raise the minimum wage to $40/hour for everybody? This is reckless, and I think the municipalities perhaps a very good reason to impose restrictions as far as non-taxable income is concerned.

(Thanks for at least giving me credit for doing the math - krayjee wouldn’t be that honest.)

I never said you had to feel sorry for them…

Many of them are trying or have tried to get RMT licenses but it is very difficult with their limited English. I’m not making excuses for them…just stating reality. And yes, of course I understand they could choose other forms of employment. If they all did that, then we wouldn’t be here discussing this

 

[Buaya]

I am not asking you to feel sorry for them - owners or the girls. I am just trying to lay out the facts as I see them.

The girls and the owners in this business are not that much different that any other business - RMT, chiropractors, etc. Everyone has the right to choose to make a living. I repeat - the Spa business is NOT an underground business.

The spa business is - as we know it today is still a legal business. Municipalities issue licences and collect a fee for it. Not that much different from all other businesses. Did they cross the line by offering sexual services in the room- Yes I am sure some do. This is done in private between 2 consenting adults. Did money change hands? Yes of course between a willing seller and a willing buyer.

Now that Richmond Hill is cleaning up the mess they created by issuing too many licences in the first place - a money grab - it will I hope bring some clarity to what a spa can and cannot offer.

I for one has no sympathy for those owners in this EBC corrider who pushes the envelope so far that it attracted too much attention and RH council had to do something. I am almost sure it started from complaints either from surrounding businesses or certain citizens. Unfortunately good Spas like Lavender etc get caught in the crossfire.

 

[Hornet]

Dude, that’s exactly where your argument is flawed. The amount that an MPA is making in tips is astronomical compared to tips in other industries. It doesn’t even compare. The tips are not bonuses for these attendants - it is their main source of income and yet it is not being reported as taxable (unlike the rest of the population). So, the authorities are finding other ways to put a leash.

Where are you getting that they are “not reporting” it? I’m saying they are reporting some of it, even “most” of it, but just not all of it. Maybe those here who are students aren’t but I can’t imagine any of them trying to screw with their Permanent Residency status. Not sure about the “astronomical” comment. I wouldn’t use that word unless it is was more than $50K. $10-20K is a-lot but not “astronomical”.

 

[Stapstan]

averagejoe2022 is pornprince is disguise

 

[Buaya]

Dude, that’s exactly where your argument is flawed. The amount that an MPA is making in tips is astronomical compared to tips in other industries. It doesn’t even compare. The tips are not bonuses for these attendants - it is their main source of income and yet it is not being reported as taxable (unlike the rest of the population). So, the authorities are finding other ways to put a leash.

It is of no concern to you or anyone the amount they get - either as tips or services rendered. You can go to an RMT clinic and still tip $60. I have seen customers tipping the person who did their hair, their nails $60 or more. Why? As 1 lady told me - Because I can.
And to add to this - It is up to them to report it not you or me. Canada Tax System is self reporting. They are not the only ones under reporting their Income. Why are you picking on them?

 

[Hornet]

averagejoe2022 is probably pornprince is disguise

Pornprince, the “tax evasion” town cryer?

 

[Social-Misfit]

averagejoe2022 is probably pornprince is disguise

Actually, porn prince had more upstairs than joey

 

[Social-Misfit]

Looks like slowjoe thinks he an expert on "everything"
You go average joey, bang those dentures against a glass, maybe someone will hear you in the basement

 

[AverageJoe2022]

Where are you getting that they are “not reporting” it? I’m saying they are reporting some of it, even “most” of it, but just not all of it. Maybe those here who are students aren’t but I can’t imagine any of them trying to screw with their Permanent Residency status. Not sure about the “astronomical” comment. I wouldn’t use that word unless it is was more than $50K. $10-20K is a-lot but not “astronomical”.

LOL!
Breaking News: There are regulations out there that prevent individuals from reporting exorbitant amounts of income that are not tied to their salary. Ask any major bank and they will confirm it. That's why FINTRAC exists. That's why they have regulations under AML (anti-money laundering) and ATF (anti-terrorist financing). Questions will arise if someone is reporting income or depositing funds that are 200% more than their regular salary. I can guarantee you that MOST of their earnings from extras are not reported to the CRA.

 

[AverageJoe2022]

It is of no concern to you or anyone the amount they get - either as tips or services rendered. You can go to an RMT clinic and still tip $60. I have seen customers tipping the person who did their hair, their nails $60 or more. Why? As 1 lady told me - Because I can.
And to add to this - It is up to them to report it not you or me. Canada Tax System is self reporting. They are not the only ones under reporting their Income. Why are you picking on them?

The earnings that MPAs receive from "extras" or sexual services are not exactly "tips" - it's their main source of income. You're comparing apples to oranges if you're comparing these bonuses to those received by estheticians at a clinic or waiters at a restaurant. I would go so far to suggest that you are indirectly misrepresenting those in the hospitality sector by making that argument and unnecessarily comparing apples to oranges. Again, you don't have to worry about me: law enforcement is seeing things differently - and that is what should concern you.

 

[Hornet]

I think we really are making a bigger deal out of mpa’s and taxes then there needs to be. Some rough math:

Estimated number of sex workers in Canada is 13-14K and includes SP’s. Let’s say there are 5K mpa’s. If the are under reporting $10-20k that is $50-100M in pre-tax income. If the tax rate is 30% that is $15-30M in lost tax revenue from mpa’s. Triple that for mpa’s and SP’s combined. It’s not going to eliminate our deficit.

There are 2.1M waitresses, waiters and bartenders in Canada. If they under reported income by $1-10K (it’s getting harder to hide with CRA audits, and electronic payments creating an audit trail) that is $2.1-$21Billion in pre-tax revenue. If we assume 25% tax rate, that is $525M-$5.25Billion in lost tax revenue.

 

[hangul99]

It would be nice to near more from spa owners as opposed to this useless back and forth between people who don't even know one another.

Lol! You expect too much from this crowd.

 

[Buaya]

LOL!
Breaking News: There are regulations out there that prevent individuals from reporting exorbitant amounts of income that are not tied to their salary. Ask any major bank and they will confirm it. That's why FINTRAC exists. That's why they have regulations under AML (anti-money laundering) and ATF (anti-terrorist financing). Questions will arise if someone is reporting income or depositing funds that are 200% more than their regular salary. I can guarantee you that MOST of their earnings from extras are not reported to the CRA.

As I said earlier, most of them are reporting their income. They file Income Tax same as you and me. How do you think some of them qualify for a mortgage of $800,000? They pay their taxes. What Salary? They are self employed individuals. What makes you so sure they are NOT declaring MOST of their income? Are you their Accountant? Tax Advisor?

Any self employed person can declare any amount they wish. With the rght Accountant advising them, it will not trigger any Audits.

 

[Ambler]

Income tax has nothing to do with this. It is local zoning and by-law enforcement. By-law only acts on complaints.

 

[AverageJoe2022]

I think we really are making a bigger deal out of mpa’s and taxes then there needs to be. Some rough math:

Estimated number of sex workers in Canada is 13-14K and includes SP’s. Let’s say there are 5K mpa’s. If the are under reporting $10-20k that is $50-100M in pre-tax income. If the tax rate is 30% that is $15-30M in lost tax revenue from mpa’s. Triple that for mpa’s and SP’s combined. It’s not going to eliminate our deficit.

There are 2.1M waitresses, waiters and bartenders in Canada. If they under reported income by $1-10K (it’s getting harder to hide with CRA audits, and electronic payments creating an audit trail) that is $2.1-$21Billion in pre-tax revenue. If we assume 25% tax rate, that is $525M-$5.25Billion in lost tax revenue.

I think you're being generous here. These MPAs are underreporting to the tune of more than double their income. They may report $30K (while working 4 days a week at a spa and maybe a part-time job elsewhere) when they are actually earning in excess of $70K. Eliminating the deficit is not part of my argument - we will NEVER achieve that on taxes alone.

As for waiters and bartenders... yes the need to eat is more important than the need to fuck. Do you actually expect to have an equal number of spas across the nation as compared to restaurants? Having a bordello is on the same level as having a place to dine? Is this the kind of reasoning that led to the crisis in the East Beaver Creek area? Probably. And that's ludicrous - which is why something is being done about it.

 

[AverageJoe2022]

As I said earlier, most of them are reporting their income. They file Income Tax same as you and me. How do you think some of them qualify for a mortgage of $800,000? They pay their taxes. What Salary? They are self employed individuals. What makes you so sure they are NOT declaring MOST of their income? Are you their Accountant? Tax Advisor?

Any self employed person can declare any amount they wish. With the rght Accountant advising them, it will not trigger any Audits.

Well yes, there are ways to get around it. Guarantors and statutory declarations and what not... I am aware.
The government is concerned because these spas are not giving back a certain percentage - either in the form of taxes or otherwise.
That's how this conflict started.

 

[Buaya]

Income tax has nothing to do with this. It is local zoning and by-law enforcement. By-law only acts on complaints.

Yes. We all know that but I was just trying to clarify that these girls and owners ARE declaring their income and paying taxes like all of us.

Under reporting their Income? Almost ALL self employed Individuals and small business owners does that. Not only the Spa Business.

 

[AverageJoe2022]

Income tax has nothing to do with this. It is local zoning and by-law enforcement. By-law only acts on complaints.

It has do with licensing and regulations - again a matter of the government trying to put a leash and documenting who's doing what (which will serve as a deterrent for under-the-table illicit activities). If not taxes, they will definitely charge these spas and their attendants through licenses and force them to undergo certifications.

It seems to be working: spas are closing down & the girls are unwilling to put their legal names on paper in order to continue business-as-usual.