Does any surgeon use MISS on the NHS?

[crazi3 c]

Hiya Cassie (will PM you soon xxx), Hiya Peggy GREAT THREAD!

Kind regards

SPINELF

 

[Shiscub]

My brother had (MISS) laser spinal surgery with Martin Knight of the Spinal Foundation some time ago and actually walked out with more pain than when he went in !!!! He si now in all sorts of trouble with nerve pain and on strong meds...Perhaps this MISS is not all it is cracked up to be,

 

[Pompal 09.]

I hope that your brother has gone back to Mr Knight and had another MRI? Do you have any more information on the pre-op state, the actual operation and the expected outcome please?

MISS is not a cure for everything and I know from my own experience that MK is very up front about the risks and the post-op expected level of pain.

 

[treweril]

Although it is a minimally-invasive surgery, its still a surgery.

Patients encounter problems after MISS surgeries, but according to studies chances of failure and future problems are 5-6 times less than after open surgery.

I am very sorry to hear your bro's problems and my fingers crossed for him.

 

[Team Edward!]

I'm sorry to hear that your brother had so much pain at post op. Spinal problems are very often complex and have more than one pain source. The trick is to accurately locate that pain source/s!! I was left with residual problems after my operation under Mr. Knight (not his fault) and I will go back to the Spinal Foundation or another (MISS) clinic for the removal of my residual pain, as soon as I find the funding for it!!

My research as shown that (MISS) procedures offer far safer and superior clinical outcomes than standard open surgerical procedures for spines. I have also found loads of information on (MISS) procedures, and very little on standard NHS procedures and nothing to support the use of microdiscectomy, fusion and so on.

He did right in my books, but seems to have been unlucky! Has your brother had a post op consultation with Mr Knight yet? If not, make sure he rings him and talks through his problems as soon as possible, I'm sure Mr. K will try and help!

Please give your brother our best wishes!

SPINELF

 

[Muhammad]

Hi All,

It's a real help to see a support system here and I feel a huge sense of comfort by sharing my problem.

I was diagnosed with disc degeneration, some stenosis, and left paracentral protusion in L5-S1 around 10 years ago in my MRI but I was fine after taking bed rest of 10-15 days.

The pain was on and off until now and I was okay after resting for 2-3 days. However, I am in continuous pain now from past 3 months and on heavy painnkillers. This pain is totally different to whatever I had in past. I am having radiating pain in my left buttock extending to my thigh and ankle. The pain also radiates to my groin sometimes.
The pain is not subsiding no matters whatever I am trying. I have tried physio and a few sessions of Theraflex (privately) here in Belfast but to no avail.

My new MRI is scheduled for coming Sunday and going by the pain I am pretty sure that the problem has aggravated over the years and I will need a surgery soon.
So keeping in my mind that NHS is so "helpful" in a "helpless" way, I am planing to get the surgery privately and have a few questions.

- Apparently the biggest one, what is the cost of MISS surgery in UK (I know only a surgeon can give a precise amount but just going by experience, in which £ range did people shell out)

- Are there any good/bad/recommended surgesons in UK apart from MK (I am based in Belfast and have to figure out where to go for my surgery) ?

- Surprisnigly, I get an awful lot of medical tourism link for MISS in India while researching on internet, any body had any experience with an Indian MISS?

- What's the quickest way to get my MRI report from NHS?

Really looking forward to any clues. Thanks all.
Cheers!!

 

[ihxlvyuf]

AFAIK, MK's specialty known as ELFD is around 15000 pounds.

I would share PM with some valuable info about treatment abroad, but I can't PM you.

 

[Dodger Town]

Sorry moderator team.

 

[IamTheBest]

Thanks for your reply Keano.

£ 15000 ... it would take me 1 year to save that kind of money

Met my GP today, it seems that getting the MRI report from NHS is a long winded process too.... another downer

 

[Herfnerd]

Unfortunately I think I am not wrong... Some others that were operated by MK can confirm me?

Abroad (India, Croatia, Turkey), same surgery is 50% cheaper but also very skilled surgeons.

 

[Need to grow Hair]

My 2008 (ELFD) was £ 12.000 all in!! I checked on prices last year and it was the same. I don't have up to date prices at present, sorry!

After 4 years of searching, I have failed to find another Surgeon 'openly' practising truely (MISS) procedures in the UK.

 

[the.ash]

Thank you for your replies guys.

Spinelf - Can you guide me how to get my MRI report from NHS and how much time does it usually takes?

Really appreciate your help.

Thanks!!

 

[gutter_fly]

I got my MRI report by phoning my GP. Was referred for MRI on Friday 7th January told it would be around a 3 week wait. Chased it up on Wednesday 12th January and managed to get my MRI done on Friday 1th January. Got the result by Tuesday afternoon.

 

[immogmado]

Your GP ‘is’ the first point of call Mahuja! Ask him/her, to refer you to the radiography or X-ray department of your nearest (MRI equipped) NHS hospital. When you make that request to your GP insist that he requests a ‘full body’ MRI scan and X-ray, even if the main pain symptoms are only in one area! The reason why this is important, is that (as I have found out to my cost) Consultant Radiographers have the ‘right’ to ‘refuse’ a full body scan, on the basis of time, cost or any other reason that they see fit, without the need to give you prior notice! The risk is that if they do reduce the number of levels checked, they could miss vital related information in other parts of the body such as feet, legs, knees and so on.

Waiting lists for these scans vary wildly! So ring the hospital in question and ask the Radiology or X-ray Booking Administrators, how long their waiting lists are! In Wales, a 3 month wait is not unusual, but it does vary wildly and I think English lists are much shorter. Ask them to put you on a cancellation list, so that if someone cancels their appointment, they can offer you an earlier appointment than would otherwise be the case. Ring you GP and start the ball rolling now!

I don’t know if you knew, but you are allowed to receive a copy of the scan (usually on a DVD disk) and the related written report! You will have to request these from the Radiology or X-ray Department and you ‘may’ have to pay £5 to £20, but I think it is very well worth it.
Also, Surgeons will only be prepared to look at scans under 6 months old, so if you have not undergone any treatment in that 6 months, you may have to have another MRI taken.

I hope this helped.

Good luck Mahuja and best wishes!

SPINELF

 

[NodeRemeDyday]

Hi Spinlef,

Thanks for your valuable advice.

I finally have my MRI report in my hand now. I think I got lucky as it only took one call and I got it collected today.

As suspected, it confirms, "A left posterolateral and central prolapse at L5/S1 compromising the left S1 nerve root". It confirms that the prolapse is "moderate".

Now I am ready for my research and different opinions i.e Microdisectomy or MISS.

As far as I have seen on this forum, it seems that all discectomies are referred as Microdisectomy no matter how big the incision is and what kind of tools are used

I was fairly convinced for MISS but some research shows that if the prolapse is fairly big the MISS can't rectify it because of tools limitation so depending upon the prolapse MISS or micro should be decided by the doctor.

 

[lizi]

One big truth is that every spinal pathology that requires surgery can be solved in minimally-invasive manner. That includes cervical, thoracic and lumbar area. And serious cases like severe scoliosis also!

Be aware, some surgeons call micro-surgery (micro-discectomy) a minimally-invasive procedure. That is not true!

 

[Luchtreose]

Hiya mahuja!

I’m glad you did not have to wait long for the scan.

A word of warning about the term, Minimally Invasive Spinal Surgery (MISS), because the term has not been patented, it is open to miss-application and ‘is’ being used to describe any procedure that is less ‘open’ and less ‘destructive’ than ‘so called’ Gold Standard Open Spine Surgery! Microdiscectomy is ‘the same open’ procedure, but usually has a 2 -4 inch incision, as apposed to the OPEN procedure’s 4 – 6 inches.

MISS procedures are always preferable, because they avoid the ‘collateral damage’ to nerves, muscles, vertibrae and tendons, that are synonymous with OPEN procedures such as microdiscectomy

By the way, the Micro in Microdiiscectomy referrers to the use of a Microscope to look 'into' the spinal canal from ‘outside’ of the body, not because the procedure is Minimally Invasive. Miss procedures use a mini endoscope, that takes images from ‘within’ the spinal canal, and is therefore closer to the root causes of your pains!

Best wishes

SPINELF

 

[Nikky]

Thanks for the great info Spinelf.

Have you had a look at IDET Nucloeplasty being done by Newcastle upon Tyne Hospitals? I am just wondering whether its sponsored by NHS. If yes it would be so helpful to people in UK.

Newcastle Hospitals - Intradiscal Electrothermal Therapy (IDET) Nucleoplasty

I am going to call them tomorrow to see what they have to say about this procedure.

Also, I was wondering that how is this nucleoplasty different than the traditional MISS surgery or is it the same procedure?

I am pretty sure you might have come across it in your research.

 

[Briermexisy]

Hey,

you got something wrong, and Newcastle Hospitals staff also...

First for you - IDET is not used for disc protrusions. Its developed to help low-back pain caused by disc degeneration and annular tear. Most of the surgeons who tried this technique have abandoned it...

Second, for Newcastle Hospitals.. IDET is not nucleoplasty. Nucleoplasty is minimally-invasive surgical technique for treating contained disc herniations..

 

[xiaoxsycq]

The little information there is on IDET, has shown 'shockingly bad' trial results and patient clinical outcomes, as bad as FUSION procedures (As little as 20% at 3 years post op). although NHS Surgeons do carry out this procedure, they 'almost' always do it privately, and for a pretty penny. It's standing with the NICE Specialist Adisors is 'far worse' than that of (ELF), now called (ELFD), and this superior MISS procedure is not even allowed on the NHS.

You must rememeber that IDET, is an MISS procedure, but involves pushing a electrode wire into the contre of a disc (nucleus) and heating the disc to around 1500 degrees for 15 mins, shinking it (think beefbuger) until it is, for all intents and purposes 'COOKED' to death.

No further revision disc treatments will be available, because although it 'may' kill the nerve endings, reduce bulging and reducing your pain, it also totally destroys the integrity of the disc, rendering it useless for the purpose for which it was designed,
as a shock absorber!!

Please Don't do it Mahuja!!!

Best wishes


SPINELF