After the disc saga - the next stage?

[<3!]

Hi,

There are plenty of us here suffering with degenerating, prolapsed, herniated, torn, ruptured, slipped discs etc. But what when the disc has degraded so much that there are now problems with the facet joints overlying or rubbing and the foraminal space disappearing?

Has anyone any advice on the best steps then please?

 

[Mythical Free Agent]

I find wild Mediterranean oil of oregano to be helpful for my degenerative disk disease and ruptured disk. I was nearly crippled with back problems when I was in my 40s. My life changed dramatically when I began to take a 50/50 blend of oil of oregano and olive oil. (Pure oil of oregano is caustic, it needs to be cut with olive oil.) I take the herb in capsules. The price varies a great deal, some brands are outrageously expensive. I don't know if you have Solaray brand in the UK. It is the least expensive I could find in the States.

I have been taking this herb for about 12 years. I am now active and suffer very little back pain, as long as I am moderate in my approach to strenuous activities. The one activity which does temporarily throw me out of whack is long distance driving. (A fit of severe sneezing did exacerbate my ruptured disk last year. It took a couple of weeks to heal.)

There is a booklet called "The Cure is in the Cupboard" by Dr. Cass Ingram, which discusses the use and efficacy of wild Mediterranean oil of oregano. I am not aware of any contraindications for this herbal oil. It helps the body to restructure. I did have some muscular discomfort when I began to take this herb, because my muscles were realigning themselves to normal position. I knew it was a good thing. I didn't worry about it.

 

[wfebyuplipbiszebv]

Well not making it worse is the priority, stopping it getting worse is also a desireable objective. But can it be improved?

Contrary to the picture many seem to hold in their minds - that this is like tyres wearing in a car - cartillage is living tissue, and to an extent does regenerate, albeit slowly. Furthermore, there are metabolic processes involved in degeneration, this is not simply abrasion.

The body allocates resources according to demand, how tissues and organs are prioritiesd is balanced by the autonomic nervous system. For example, if the fight-or flight systems are invoked, muscle tissue will be favoured. Cartillage, being less active metabolically, has lesser support in times of stress. Hence adequate recovery, rest, emotional support, nutrition and mechanical ease are all part of the picture - same as for ANY health condition. Too many people think strenuous exercise is the answer to all health problems, it is not.

A few other factors need to be considered also, for example aspirin (which was very popular at the turn of the century for its now disputed beneficial effect on heart disease), actually impairs the laying down of collagen, and accelerates wear. There may be many such things, you never know what is going to be important in each case.

Weight-bearing facets you describe are a potential problem, but not everybody with these changes suffers from them, so there must be more aspects to it. It is typical of the medical mindset to look at the factors that can't be changed or are permanent (often setting up university departments to try and solve them), whilst dismissing the less glamourous influences that are relatively easy to handle.

I think it is a better strategy to look at the aspects that can be changed. What those may be is too big a subject for one post, but think 'general health' and 'living tissue' as your watchwords for the health of all joints, as much as any organ.

 

[trnvjhqs]

Have you had a recent high quality Mri scan & X-ray done Cassie?
and, what level/s are you talking about?

The reason I ask is, that as you say the facet structure is closing up the foraminal opening, you can expect 'symptomatic compressive pains' coming from this level, this is presuming that this is not already happening. If you are getting say 'sciatic nerve' problems at present, and this is where the facet joint problem is, you can bet they are linked.

The problem you describe is a 'mechanical' one. The discs don't just act as shock absorber, they are also a 'spacer'. reduction of that space will cause you compression and other issues, as I'm sure you are already aware!

The imperitive therefore, is to re-establish the space. The usual one Surgeons choose of course is 'fusion' (and you know what I think of that rubbish), the other is the newer disc replacement (artificial alloy and rubber discs) surgery. But if there are non-invasive 'stretching' therapies that you can tolarate and that you have not tried yet, that might give you a little relief from the worst of the compression, then give it a whirl!

I would love to believe that 'non-invasive' therapies could cure or largely improve your condition Cassie, because of the positive effects Osteopathy has had on my life, But given your back history, and my experiences, my mechanical mind will no let me ignore the facts.

If you need reserch help Cassie, you know where I am.

Best wishes

SPINELF

 

[Brittnay Holder]

Over the last 34 years I have treated many many folk who have come to me in clinic with truely awful degerative changes on X-Rays and MRI scans and yet they report relatively few symptoms and have remarkably good movement and little pain.
By contrast the opposite is also true.
MRI scans and X-Rays show pretty tissue health state but the patient has very restricted movement and reports very bad and limiting symptoms.

So we cant say everyone with severe changes will get bad symptoms.
Usually there is a combination of different factors which cause an episode.

It may be that the person with severe changes can get along fine, but then they go through a major life change/episode of stress and changed physiology and that is a catalyst to them having a limiting episode.
They may become depressed and perhaps their usually relatively good 'happiness' pain relief falls away, it could be a period of ill health and general lack of activity and reduced circulation.

There are many factors, and any therapists to help when folk do have acute episodes. Fortunately many kinds of treatment help, either through changing blood flow, shifting an emotional or physiological state, the endorphine release of acupunture...the list is endless

 

[beepbeeBEEP]

Dogwoman ~ you are really very lucky if you find that oil helps and you only need a couple of weeks to heal a ruptured disc.

KVDP ~ I agree, several discs are rehydrating, I do rest most of the time and also take care with my diet, will investigate the aspirin effect though as I wasn't aware of that one.

To all ~ Why does that old chestnut keep rearing it's head about 'take a 100 miri's and 40% will be worse than yours and will have no pain' that is so unhelpful and I must find out the basis of that study lol, as I have found some factual studies that say the exact opposite, that some of the people scanned were not asked about their backs and any possible back pain or problems at all because they were scanned for different medical reasons?

 

[Pompal 09.]

C6/7 L2/3/4/5/S1 shall we start with those lol?

I have had great success from the exercise in the Back Bible that was recommended to me here, the rolling and leg bends etc, and the mri's show improvement in some areas And yes now fusion on the lower levels has reared it's ugly head

Ostepoathy (cervical area) and Chiropractic ( lumbar area) have certainly had their day and improved many things and changed others. I guess it's not everyone that has 3 or more MRI's in a year and can actually chart the changes. I know I was stunned!

Cooooeee, put the kettle on please

 

[Thimeladyn]

Au contraire, it's totally helpful.

The way so many people look at their situations is "here's the finding, there's the diagnosis, so there's nothing that can change. It's drugs or surgery and a lifetime of living with the problem for me".

On the other hand, as alternative therapists we're in the business of saying "here's the finding, but there's so much more to the situation than that. Here's the diagnosis, but that's only the starting point for understanding the problem".

You can pay your money and take your choice, but surely the second version is more empowering and enabling, isn't it? It means that there may be something you can do about the problem, instead of simply surrendering to medical management. That's what you were after, wasn't it?

(incidentally, it is true, from OA of the hip to blood tests - findings and symptoms often have very little correlation)

 

[Defending Sunnah]

I'm sorry if that didn't come across correctly. What I said was it took two weeks to heal an exacerbation of the ruptured disk. I did fail to mention that I temporarily increased the dosage from maintenance to acute condition dosage (from 2 to 6 capsules per day).

 

[dado]

I was sent on 3 separate Pain Management courses to try and get me to come to terms with my condition and accept it, and that I would end up in a wheel chair! No way!

I am, well used to be, an alternative therapist working mainly with horses. I use(d) Reiki, Shiatsu, Massage, Aromatherapy, Crystal Therapy,Crystal Healing, Colour therapy, Aura Soma, Acupressure, Acupuncture, Hot stone massage, Cranial Osteopathy, Ostepoathy, Chiropractic, Meditation, Nutrition Therapy, Hydrotherapy, Bowen Therapy, Alexander Technique, and probably more that my brain fog is sheltering too lol.

Yups I also wanted to see what other methods, items and idea other have tried and used, hence the thread. It's for positive self-help options Maybe we should also have a medications thread to see what helps everyone as one of the main points that was stressed on course number 2 was that WE have to take charge of our health and often WE know more about our condition than the doctors or surgeons, so if there is a med that we find out about that may help, talk to the Pain Clinic or gp about it.

I actually find that from my experience many complementary therapies can cloud the real picture and affect the way a person reacts to situations and pain. Now this is mostly for the good, I agree, but it can mean that sometimes diagnosis is not as easy and does not follow the norm.

I have several conditions that show on mri but because I am clever at adapting my life and coping with the pain they are ignored, whereas, if I stopped all my hard work I know I would quickly deteriorate and need more invasive help? But maybe sometimes the bigger picture needs to be rammed down a surgeons throat?

 

[mikesimarta]

Makes more sense now, thanks Didn't 6 capsules affect your gut though, that is pretty strong stuff. Not much evidence on pain relief though it seems to be more about fungicidal, anti-bac aspects?

I prefer White Willow in a tea, as I find it really hard to swallow meds every day.